Shit motor cyclist tend to end up dead real quick, it's a natural selection thing.

+ several

I have an overpowered motorbike that gets used infrequently for town use as well as long distance riding and I think it's a really good idea (from the motorbiker's view). I have been knocked off twice while not in a bus lane by taxis suddenly pulling out of said bus lane into me as I am overtaking them. If I had been in the same lane as them, I'm pretty sure they would have seen me behind them and saw me pulling out to overtake.

I'm with VinylVillian completely on this one, having driven, rode and pedelled most forms of transport round the centre of London (including artic lorries.) Everyone else is a cunt, you are always in the right.

This is the mantra of my life

mopeds and motorcycles will just do what they always do in bus lanes: block up the mythical 'filtering space'...for all their experience (and of course gigantic bollocks), motorcyclists regularly wheel their bikes with their feet out into my path from between cars...maybe 360degree visors would help?

as for empathy, they do see you as another person on a bike, but they would be fine if they bumped into you, and even if they do come off(at the same speed, ie. they aren't doing the usual 50mph in a bus lane), they have their leathers etc.

I'd have respect for them if they didn't wrap themselves up in 300 layers of leather, and rev their throttle like some overweight middle aged german pornstar stroking themself off...whats the big deal? it's your ENGINE!

So we're still agreed that scooter drivers are cunts? Good.

Make em ride in underwear?

I look at it like the least vulnerable people on the road need to be the most responsible, and the most to blame when things have gone wrong. i.e. if you choose to drive an SUV you are choosing to be responsible for the added risk you are causing.

I think if anything bigger gets in an accident with something smaller (a bicycle and a pedestrian) the bigger thing is most probably more responsible for the damage caused, even if the smaller thing is what screwed up.

Motorcycles are choosing to cause more risk than bikes and pedestrians, thus if there is an accident between them, they are more to blame from the outset.
Same goes for a car that hits a motorcycle, or the SUV that hits a car.

I think it should be possible for everyone to be in the road together, the problem is everyone wants to shirk the responsibility that they have for others.

The problem is a lot bigger, it's getting rid of the babysitter state that says you're not even responsible for yourself, much less for some one else.

Until then it's important to keep the most vulnerable/least impact safe by giving them the most rights (i.e. pedestrian's rights). Cyclists should have the most rights after ped's. They should be rewarded for causing less risk to others/environment.

It's about your choice to put others at risk. You shouldn't have to tell people what to do, you should make it an obvious choice.

Here we go....(from ITV news)
From January next year motorcyclists will be able to use bus lanes along red routes in London during peak hours. It should ease congestion and make journeys safer.

Arse. Guess they'll cog up the asl too.

the trouble with motorbikers is they want their cake and to eat it just like cyclists. if you take the polar opposites of fluro wearing slow cycle commuter who obeys all traffic laws and the brakeless hipster shouting at peds as he jumps a red how can other road users take their claims for safer roads seriously.
motorbikes get 'think bike' and we are supposed to watch out for them as they are vulnerable on the road, well if they didn't go around at warp speed driving like a shortarse with a small penis all the time then maybe the evil motorist would be more considerate.

cunts the lot of them.

C+

Who cares? they use them anyway.

Because, up to now, the ASL is respected by all road users, most of all mopeds and motorbikes.

C+²

I think this is a really bad idea. Motorbikes have used Bus lanes for a while but they stay close to the edge (as it less of an offence?). Now they will fly down the middle, undertake us and fill up the gaps in traffic (they also do this, do they not know how big there bikes are!!!!). When there are a number of colisions I think this law maybe rethought.

I ride motorbikes as well as bicycles and people like the LCC really piss me off with their unrealistic, biased and anti-everything-except-cycles bullshit. For a start they are not cyclists' bus lanes. They are for buses.

No-one has yet mentioned the findings of the 18 month long pilot study. They were that motorcycle, bicycle and pedestrian accidents were ALL down by roughly 50%. Everyone won. Here's why

Motorcyclists (at least those with British full bike licences) are probably amongst the most highly trained and skilled road users you will encounter. Not only do we do a shit load more training than anyone in a car or on a bicycle (which for the majority of cyclists is none at all) we also have an acutely developed sense of our own vulnerability and mortality. I guarantee the vast majority of shit riding you see will be people with L plates on their bikes. you know they are crap because they have not managed to pass their test yet.

Motorcycles have engines that make a noise. That means that pedestrians who, as we all know, blithely step into the road without looking may on occasion stay on the pavement, and perhaps even look, because they heard a motorbike engine.

Motorcycles in bus lanes means fewer motorcycles in between lanes of traffic and fewer motorcycles in the middle of the road. safer for motorbikes, but also safer for anyone crossing, anyone cycling, overtaking etc. No nasty surprises because motorbikes will be out in the open for all to see.

Motorcycles - well, at least the one ridden by me - take a protective attitude towards bicycles. I will block traffic, create space, rev my motor to warn dozy pedestrians of my presence - whatever it takes - to make an overtake or a junction or any other manoeuvre safer for a cyclist. So will many others I see. Even those bikers who are not also cyclists know how much room we ourselves like to be left. In bus lanes this means motorcyclists will also be watching cyclists backs against buses, black cabs, people turning left, etc. If left turners get used to looking out for motorbikes (who have insurance and can sue them, so maybe they will, you never know) then they will get used to looking out for bicycles too.

This includes Advanced stop lines. Yes bikers use them, and for the exact reasons that they were put there for cyclists - because it is far safer to only have to worry about what's behind rather than what is in front too - like cyclists motorbike riders need to know what is going on much further ahead than a car does. But there's another reason motorcyclists use them. Because cyclists don't. The number of junctions where these are placed in a position that is actually of any use to a cyclist is minimal, and most cyclists either stop well ahead of the ASL or just don't bother stopping at all. That's fine with me as long as they give pedestrians the right of way. Now I personally will not enter an ASL if I am already at the front of the queue, and blatantly position myself so as to set the example to other bikers (which sometimes works), but I will use them if I am filtering to the front. One thing about ASLs which is never mentioned is that the very presence of motorbikes in them is what keeps the cars and vans out of them. which allows the space not occupied by the motorcycle to be occupied by a bicycle. you know yourselves if there is no motorbike up front the ASL is usually full of car, bus, cab, van or truck.

BlueQuinn. I agree, I think cyclists have to get off their high horse on this. There's a lot of good Mbike riders who think, act, position and ride defensively like I do out on the road, and often find myself thanking the good ones for just the sorts of things you're talking about, particularly the professionals. Like Tommy said at the top of this page, shit motorcyclists tend to naturally select themselves into early graves or hospital.

+1 to BB and Skully - i ride bikes and MBikes daily, and spent 3 years living in Bristol where this has been allowed since 99, and never once had a problem on a motorbike or bicycle. I doubt in practice it will make any difference to riding around town.

Ok, I will retract part of my rant. I agree that a lot of Mbikes riders are acctualy quite considerate. I do find Mopeds to be quite a problem though. As BlueQuin pointed out. This is due to the fact that they have only done a CPD and have not passed a test. Although these people arguably need the safer bus lanes they tend to be more reckless (and clueless?) than their higher trained, higher CC'ed counterparts.

You have hit the nail on the head there - as both a cyclists and motorcyclist, under trained scooter riders are the road users i am most wary of

+1 to Skully and BlueQuinn.
Read BlueQuinn's post, hopefully it will make people think before knee jerk reactions and lumping motorcyclists in with vans, taxi's, buses, etc. Anything on two wheels is inherently more vulnerable than their four wheeled counterparts and this bus lane rule/law means all two wheeled users will be safer.

Will the laws be changed regarding those L-plate riders then?
New motorcycle tests are coming in March 2009.
I expect to see a lot more riders on the roads soon (recession).

I welcome our fully-qualified, two-wheeled friends into the bus lanes.

+1 the people I really feel sorry for are unicyclists.

but seriously motor cyclist are in general good, the bigger the bike usually the better. The old boys on massive touring BMWs always seems super chilled and on the ball.

The motorcycle testing system is getting even more complicated and difficult next year - big campaigns in the motorcycling community against the new tests and they are seen as prohibative to new riders - i wouldnt expect to see more motorbikes, but more scooters is likely

Currently if you do not want to ride a motorbike, but do want to ride a scooter over 125cc, there is an automatic test you can do, which is simpler than a full test, but still focuses on proper road safety and awareness - personally i think this should be mandatory for all scooter riders - i remenber a couple of years back a girl i know bought a scooter, having done her CBT, picked it up drove about a mile and called me up to come and drive it for her as she shat herself on the roads and didnt feel capable, this despite the fact she had passed all the legal requirements to ride a scooter on the road - some of the riding you see on scooters makes me want to look away in case of the worst

hmmm. how many trained cyclists on the road do you meet.

What you guys are forgetting though is that the government/Dft/TfL (whoever) say that they want to encourage people to cycle but this new scheme does not make sense. Some cyclists are going to feel intimidated by other motorised vehicles in bus lanes. Bus lanes are not always very well maintained and are full of potholes so it is difficult to stay in a straight line.

Although there are a lot of good motorbike/mopeds riders around, there are a lot of bad ones. If one collides with me, I know who will be hurt. And if more accidents happen between motorbikes and cyclists we know how it will be reported/perceived by everybody "cyclists are stupid and should pay tax and learn how to ride". They will be blamed.

ASLs should be respected and used by cyclists only.

Sorry - don't agree with BlueQuinn. Most of that doesn't chime with my everyday experience of bikers.
Obviously there are some good / considerate etc motorbike riders, but in ASLs and bus lanes particularly, the majority of mopeds & motorbikes weave in & out with no regard to anyone else, block any available space and generally make life a lot tougher for cyclists.

And bikers use ASLs because cyclists don't? Just bollocks.

Villa-ru

I overlooked BlueQuinn's thing about why Mbikes are in often in the ASLs, seemed slightly warped. But to be honest I'd rather they were alongside me or ahead of me at lights than behind me, so I've stopped stressing about them in ASLs.

Veevee
You have a point that cycling should be encouraged actually as well as theoretically.

But (!) I feel Mbikes in Bus, Taxi & Cycle lanes will not seriously worsen what is already a pretty bad lot. I have to say Black cabs are more of a problem since they seem to feel their manhood is being questioned if they don't get to pass a cyclist who is doing 10-15mph in order to wait in traffic 25 metres further along, and so try to squeeze cycles into the gutter.

I've never seen a motorbike, or even a scooter-ridden-by-a-twat, push a bicycle out of the way an occupied ASL zone
If there is room for a motorcycle in there it's obviously because there isn't a bicycle in that space.

ETA: and I think new riders are far more intimidated by bloody great big buses in the bus lanes that piddly little motorbikes.

Yeah and I'd rather the twatty ones were where I could keep an eye on em i.e. not behind me.

I see what you mean now, but it's more a matter of getting there and finding it is already full of motorbike/scooters, or more often, there is no gap left to access the ASL. It can be really intimidating and also leaves cyclists stuck in the midst of the traffic as they set off.

Having said that, I think there are far worse dangers on the roads - the ASL thing is just my personal irritant at the mo'. Probs need to ChillTFU.

Just last week I had some twat on a motorbike right up my arse revving the engine like mad as I was trying to negotiate a section of my commute that combines an approach to a junction where the traffic pulls out on the left because it has no clear sightline down the road, underfoot (wheel?) is some badly repaired road surface and the lane is prone to cars entering from the right quite fast.
The safest place for me is well out into the second lane. This gives me space to see and be seen by cars from the left, is the smoothest road surface and avoids a sharp-edged drain cover. I hold this position until I've passed the junction and then it's back into the centre of the first lane.
clearly I'm going too slowly for the prick on the motobike, but having gotten so tight in behind me, I can't see past him to check for a clear lane to my left, nor can I tell why he hasn't just overtaken on the right (he could have). I held my line longer than I wanted to becuase I couldn't tell if he was going to undertake me on the left.
Needless to say he overtook with about an inch to spare (absolutely deliberately) on my right.
30 seconds later we're at the same set of lights side by side and he's just looking at me and revving the engine like mad.

Now 99.99% of the motorcyclists I encounter give me no grief at all, but this is the second time in 6 months I've had to put up with behaviour like this. Personally if I can have my bus lane to myself, I'd like to keep it that way.