London Fixed-gear and Single-speed SJS Cycles

I want to buy a couple of things, arm warmers and base layer, for the winter and after the market research I always end up with the same indecision, Merino wool or thermolite fabric. Both are in a similar range of price, maybe merino a bit more, but just a bit.

What is the general opinion, what is best, why?
thanks for your opinion.

Rik

I'm currently sitting at the comp in an Endura BaaBaa base layer. In a word. it's brilliant. I've been wearing it on and off for about a week, it has got no odours at all and is in fact quite breathable (compared to Merino which is a bit sweaty and pongy).

It's extremely comfortable and well fitting.

Most importantly it is VERY warm!

Hope that helps.

P.S. I do have a thermolite fleece and leggings, and although comfy on the bike, I wouldn't want to be sitting around in either for anytime at all.

OKays, wierd. I find Merino better than Thermolite for the smells.

The only drawback to Merino is its incredibly fragile. I haven't worn my thermalite as much, and maybe they're just as weak, but it seriously gets me that of the 5 baselayers I bought last winter, all but 1 have hole in them.

I'm similarly sitting here in an icebreaker merino top. It's 4 years old and has about 8 holes in it! Otherwise it's brilliant :-) Seriously, I don't think I'd buy anything else - yes, it's a little more fragile than synthetics (I have other synthetics going back years and still going strong!), but the odour control is outstanding and I love the feel of it next to your skin.

I wear an extremely thin microlayer polyster vest all year round. In the winter I wear a thin merino layer on top of this. I find it works well

been wearing merino baselayers (the baabaa and the rapha) since the summer and they've been really comfortable. oh...and i have washed them since the summer, to clarify. all are in excellent condition and i just dump them into the 30 degree was with non-bio.

I find the high quality artificial stuff is much better at wicking and faster drying, however I like the fact merino is warm even when you're only wearing a thin layer of it.
At the moment I am wearing a HH Lifa Base Layer, with a North Face Merino wool layer over the top, this and a shell jacket for the really cold days is more than warm enough for me in the winter, and I stay dry also with this combo, even when getting pretty sweaty.

I wear a Caprina(?) base layer. It's a long sleeve synthetic layer which does really help me to keep warm. The problem with it is sweat. When i get sweaty it feels disgusting and unnatural on my skin, whenever i get off my bike, i literally cannot wait to get it off me.
I'm looking for something relatively cheap, but that really works when it comes to extracting sweat away from my body - from the above it sounds like Merino might be the best choice for me...?

Merino is really good stuff, the problem i've found though is when it gets wet it takes longer to dry than my HellyHansen Synthetic base layers, this means if you're sweating a lot, or its humid, or raining a little bit, you will get colder faster in a merino layer from windchill, however merino is better at insulating, just not as good at keeping you dry.
Its horses for courses, i've found one Merino over the top of a synthetic to be the "ultimate combo" in the winter, its what I wear when I go snowboarding as well, you get the best of both worlds, good wicking performance and decent warmth.
Sometimes though I just wear the synthetic and throw my jacket over the top, since I don't seem to suffer the cold as badly as most people.
I'd get one of each at least anyway, one base layer is never enough, I must have 5 or 6 now I think....

Also these come very highly rated by a lot of people: http://www.outdoormania.co.uk/Item-0...High_Neck.aspx

Easily the equivalent warmth wise of a couple of base layers, but with less bulk.

Combines the best of both worlds:

Lifa + Merino > Merino IMO

I don't have that problem with merino (staying damp). I mean, yes it remains slightly damp to the touch but it does keep you snug, which is the key thing.

Of the synthetics, the only one I really like and can live with is Patagonia Capilene. Very nice on the skin, wicks extremely well, very durable, and no longer term smell problems, although you can't wear it as much as merino between washes.

Can't stand HH thermals, find them extremely uncomfortable and, after some use, the odour is impossible to get rid of. Plus super unstylish IMO!

When I was younger I got to try a lot of these base layers and technical clothing out, and test them, borrow them as I worked for an outdoor clothing/adventure shop, even got a one-off sample piece of Gore Windstopper clothing back at home before it was released :)
I don't think I ever came across another base-layer that matched the wicking performance of HH (and I tried a few), also with socks if you want the best socks for the winter go for some by Wigwam, I have some of their Ultimax Ski/snowboard socks with OUTLAST™, still the best socks out there.

merino rules

synthetics take on perma stench so despite cleaning every time they are used they smell within a few minutes of being put on

the quality of the merino will also affect its performance and longevity, my endura base layer is not as nice as my rapha one, so is used less often yet has bobbled more.

the stench effect is down to your skin, its pH and the bacteria you carry, so some people are fine with synthetics

one of merinos differences to synthetics is that it will hold more water but despite holding the water it still insulates very well

you get what you pay for, buy merino if you can afford it

Courant, what are you using to wash your base layers?
I only use NikWax Base wash or Wool Wash, and i've owned my HH layers for 3 years with no Odour problems, why people wear base-layers for more than 2-3 days at a time is beyond me anyways, wash them you dirty bastards!

For the merino and lycra and stuff, I just use a very mild non-bio. I now only own 1 HH-esque poly-propelene top which I have to hot wash with nasty detergent to get clean, and even then it's a bit smelly.

Base-layers for more than 2 days... never been touring, or camping?! 5 days in my merino top on a climbing trip was the longest between washes - despite lots of physical exertion and sleeping in it, it was still passable* at the end. Long lasting thermals are a real bonus, because you only have to buy a couple to see you good.

(*at least relative to the rest of me!)

I think Synthetics only take on a perma-stench if you don't wash them with decent stuff, after selling all this kinda shizzle to people for nearly 4 years when I was younger, anytime I recommended someone use a decent anti-bacterial wash their base-layers stopped smelling like shit all the time, amazing eh!
Good quality merino is great, good quality synthetic material is great, but they need to be treated accordingly, and anything thats spending that much time being sweated in should be washed in a decent anti-bacterial base layer wash if you want to stay hygenic.
Also bear in mind that each material has its plus points and different uses, for instance in the height of summer, I wouldn't wear Merino Wool unless I wanted to be swimming in my own sweat and feel constantly moist, likewise in the winter I wouldn't wear just a synthetic unless I wanted to be freezing my arse off all the time.
This is why most top end base-layers, designed for heavy physical activity in extreme cold weather combine high end Merino Wool, and high end synthetic material, which as I have been saying is the superior combo over just Merino on its own under these conditions. I get by on nothing but a synthetic layer, underneath a merino layer, underneath a shell jacket, all winter long... and I stay dry and warm :)

Thats the problem right there, you are using crap washing liquid to wash a very dirty base-layer, you need to use decent stuff, which will also improve the life of your base-layer, and negate the need for you to do stupid things like put it on a hot-wash with nasty detergent, which will damage the wicking properties of it and you might as well throw it in the bin after!

Wash as per the label with this stuff: http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/womens-c...ml/COREAWBE141

Merino is nice and warm and comfy (provided your not tin the 10% of the population that's allergic to wool). Only drawback is its not very wear resistant. M&S were doing decent but cheaper Merino base layers last winter, they might have some more in now.

If you smell bad you could go for a base layer that has silver strands embedded in the threads which is supposed to reduce the smellyness. We had guys doing 3-4 days hard walking in them without an obvious clingy odour..

I wash all my synthetic baselayers at 40 degrees with the normal non-bio detergent and they don't smell after but I get them free so I'm not worried about them wearing out. Otherwise wash them on a wool cycle but at 40 with normal detergent as it's the wash cycle that may cause damage to Merino.

Yeah, but the other point is that I don't want to have to worry about using "proper" detergent to wash my stuff, either at home or away. Quite frequently on trips, soap or shampoo in cold water is the mode of washing, and this categorically does not work with smelly-hellys, but does with merino!

BTW you do know that merino comes in multiple weights? I happily use it year round without getting sweaty and I generally run quite hot.

the silver finishes in synthetics wash out pretty quickly

i am allergic to biological washing powders

I don't want to have to mess about with washing base layers differently to my normal clothes. It's all about having something you can just dash into your normal wash.

I don't think i'm quite clear on how the Merino layers work. They hold more moisture - does that mean that they take moisture away from your skin, or that they just get really sweaty?
(Actually, as an after-thought, t-shirts get sweaty when i ride in them but they don't feel weird or irritate my skin...so perhaps it's just the synthetic material against my skin that i don't like).

Do synthetic layers generally work better at getting sweat away from your skin?

I'm now thinking that it might be about buying a decent over layer, and just wearing a t-shirt underneath.

Uniqlo do merino jumpers for £20 . My missus got me one for my b'day. If you bought a size down you could use one as a base layer as there quite thin for a jumper but still keeps you warm

If you wanna spend the money use Tech Wash by NikWax to wash your Merino and synth base layers in. If you want to achieve the same without spending money, use soap flakes, good old fashioned soap flakes from the supermarket/ironmonger/haberdashery store. This is 100% the same deal as Tech Wash. I've found both are the best at getting the whiff out of base layers, but I never machine wash Merino, despite people saying you can....

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/womens-c...ml/COREAWBE141 - this is just liquid soap flakes!!

Icebreaker Merino by the way is the good stuff.

Merino pulls moisture from the skin but holds more fluid than synthetics. But even when holding fluid it's warmer than synthetic

basically it fucking rules

go and look at some camping forums for more info

Yeah I know it comes in different weights, I only sold high end outdoor clothing for nearly 4 years, I never learnt nuffink in that time innit.

:p

Did you know that Gore-tex comes in different weights to?
and that they changed the construction of Gore Windstopper before general release because it wasn't breathable enough.
I've still got a pre-release sample bodywarmer from a Berghaus rep years ago made from the stuff, and its good but not up to the quality of the new stuff that they used when they put everything into production, my Gore windstopper gloves were a lot better in terms of breathability.

Anyways all this talk of Merino and Lifa....Outlast™ is where its at when it comes to temperature regulation if you get hot all the time, my Wigwam Outlast socks were nearly £30 a pair but worth every penny....well I didn't pay anywhere near that, but they were still worth every penny ;)

I can't believe i have witnessed an entire thread on the cut of clothes, feel of fabric and how to get the best washing results and not one of you has had the decency to tell this Gringo to Harden The Fuck Up!
this place makes me sad at times, an extra big HTFU should go to you domestic godesses

Rik stick to the beer jacket and be a man!

Base wash is better, it has stronger anti-bacterial properties, tech wash is OK however, i've used it as well when i've run out of Base Wash.

I've also got a merino buff/neck tube which absolutely rocks.

My personal combination until it gets cold enuff for my milwaukee is merino tee, merino jumper, merino buff, with a montane velo to keep the wind out. I find this combo all keeps me warm without getting overly sweaty. If i'm getting too hot i can take the velo off and stuff it in my pocket and/or take the buff off and wrap it around my wrist

Yes generally, although this obviously depends on the synthetic in question, but put a super high end synthetic against super high end merino wool, compare wicking performance and the synthetic will win everytime.

James has almost got it right here ^ assuming you don't have to take into account the windchill factor then yes it is warmer even when holding fluid, however if you are not planning on wearing a shell jacket over the top to prevent windchill, then you should wear a synthetic layer underneath which keeps the moisture off of your skin and in the merino instead, allowing fluid to continue to evaporate into the air without taking your bodyheat with it, as the synthetic layer is wicking moisture away from your skin faster than the merino on its own would.
Due to the nature of merino and the way it holds fluid, it will be more prone to windchill if you are not wearing a shell on top of it, or a synthetic underneath.
I find this warm enough most of the winter and only put a shell on when it gets really humid or is raining/exceptionally windy.

Yeah, but Gore-tex is shit - Event is where it's at :-)

eVent is fucking amazing!

Goretex Paclite > eVENT.

Not if you care about not ripping your jacket!

If I cared about that I wouldn't go with Paclite, i'd go with a heavier weight Goretex, all depends what you want innit bruv.

Saying that my Paclite jacket needs tat rip patching up still :(

But then again I think most jackets would have ripped... if you crashed and slid upside down on your shoulder down an icy car park ramp.

No, you'd go with eVent, see?! All the breathability of paclite, with the great wear characteristics you've come to expect from gore-tex :-)

Pac-lite is pretty damn tough, 16+stone lump of a bloke crashing and sliding down a car park ramp (at speed!), and only getting two little rips on the shoulder of a jacket that weighs about as much as a gnats left testicle was pretty impressive in my eyes....if you're expecting bullet proof maybe you should get a Kevlar Paclite™ jacket?

guys, guys, focus here. Merino vs Thermolite

I already have a jacket, thanks you

The whole point of Paclite is that its lightweight and you can compress it down easily without damaging the fabric (or rather its designed to be compressed down, whereas normal gore-tex fabrics aren't), I don't get the point of this eVENT lark, lightweight but not designed to be compressed down, heavier than Paclite but lighter than Goretex, it can't seem to make up its mind?!
If I was going to go with a lightweight and durable shell jacket (i'm talking non cycling specific here), it'd have to be HH or Berghaus IMO.

Already answered that question Rik ;)

I think is going to be merino

If you're just going to buy one layer, and one only for the winter, this is THE one:

[COLOR=#810081]http://www.outdoormania.co.uk/Item-0...High_Neck.aspx[/COLOR]

High quality Merino, high quality synthetic, i'd get one if I didn't already have shitloads of base-layers and combinations that can do the same job, this does the same thing as my 2 base layer combo pretty much.

I'm looking for armwarner and base layers, both

any advise for a good armwarmers???

Why do you want seperate?

Get something like that and it'll keep both your arms and your body more than warm enough, and dry to.

Armwarmers: Santini from prendas.

Base layer: can't go wrong with Merino.

I've never owned armwarmers, but I would save your money, try that baselayer first, and then if you feel you need additional insulation for your arms look into armwarmers I guess?

does it come with a mask n cape?

Those Odin layers are so good you may get one and find you don't need/want armwarmers is all i'm saying.....

Mowgster they come with free Odin eye, and Thors Hammer if you collect enough tokens :p